Milestone-Proposal talk:Salva's Electric Telegraph, 1804

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Starting the approval process -- John Vardalas (talk) 19:38, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

I have been tasked with overseeing the examination of this Milestone proposal, and hopefully its final approval. As a starting point, I have asked three recommended experts, external to the History Committee, to assess this submission. When I have their results back I will post them on these discussion pages. Further discussions will then depend on the substance of the expert opinions.

John Vardalas, Ph.D. Member, IEEE History Committee

Comments from one external expert -- John Vardalas (talk) 00:09, 26 July 2018 (UTC)

Dr. David Hochfelder, Associate Professor, State University of New York, Albany, is an historian of technology who has written on the history of the telegraph. I asked him to review the submission. He finds the proposed Milestone to be "clearly significant" technological achievement, and that documentation provided to be in order, and supporting the claim.

Re: Comments from one external expert -- Apyuste (talk) 08:50, 6 September 2018 (UTC)

I really appreciate the support to the Milestone coming from Dr. Hochfelder. Salva's Electric Telegraph was indeed the very first practical application of Volta's battery, devised just four years after its invention.

Second Expert Evaluation of Salva Milestone Submission -- John Vardalas (talk) 04:28, 29 July 2018 (UTC)

At my request, Prof. Elias Fuste evaluated this proposal. His reply is below.

"I completely agree with the merits described in the Milestone proposal submitted by the Spain Section of IEEE, about the Dr. Francisco Salvá I Campillo. In my opinion, the greatest contribution of Dr. Francisco Salvà i Campillo to telecommunications, was to prove in a reliable way at the dawn of the nineteenth century, that electricity, that unknown and invisible new fluid, could be used to transmit signals remotely. Dr. Salvá i Campillo demonstrated it by building a telegraph that used Volta batteries to generate the electricity, batteries that he himself built. A pioneering work in electrical and telecommunications engineering. To add something that I also think is significant: Dr. Salvà i Campillo could be also considered as the constructor of the first telecommunications cable, since in his experiments with the electric telegraph, he grouped all the pairs of wires in a single bundle or string isolating each conductor by wrapping it in oil-greased paper. The German Museum of Science and Technology in Munich reflected this fact in a panel 20 years ago.

I believe that Dr. Salva i Campillo is a pioneer of electrical telecommunications and deserves to be registered with the IEEE Milestone distinction." Prod. Antoni Elias Fusté, Universität Politecnica de Catalunya Barcelona Tech.

Re: Second Expert Evaluation of Salva Milestone Submission -- Apyuste (talk) 08:53, 6 September 2018 (UTC)

The words from Prof. Elias Fuste are highly estimated as he was once one of the history scholars who broadly devoted his time to regain Salva's memory. I appreciate very much his support.

Location of Milestone plaque -- John Vardalas (talk) 17:05, 13 August 2018 (UTC)

The current building was inaugurated in 1894. Was there an earlier building on this site when Salva reported his results? The Royal Academy's website is not clear on this point.

Re: Location of Milestone plaque -- Apyuste (talk) 09:04, 6 September 2018 (UTC)

The Barcelona Royal Academy of Sciences was originally established in 1764. Since 1786, its seat was based at the 115 of La Rambla Street, in Barcelona, being at that site from then to our present time. The original building started a whole refurbishment in 1883, so it was re-inaugurated in 1894. Consequently, Francisco Salva addressed his report to the Academy in 1804, in the former building of the Academy at the same seat where currently it is based on.

Nature of Salvá's 1804 report to the Academy -- John Vardalas (talk) 18:37, 20 August 2018 (UTC)

As I understand it, this proposed Milestone is for the 1804 "report "of Salvá's new telegraph which was not accompanied by any proof of principle. The practical demonstration, which vindicated his ideas, came later. It would thus be helpful to understand the word "reported" used in the citation. How did the Academy function in 1804? Did Academy members gather at regular meetings where papers were presented by the authors and then followed by discussions? Did authors have to be members to read a paper to the Academy? Was Salvá a member in 1804? Or did someone else present the paper on Salvá's behalf?

Third Expert Evaluation of Salva Milestone Submission -- John Vardalas (talk) 18:44, 20 August 2018 (UTC)

This assessment comes from Prof. Jose A.Delgado-Penin, He is currently Emeritus Prof at the Universitat Politècnica de Catalunya(UPC.BarcelonaTECH) . Department of Signal Theory and Communications (TSC).

"I want to communicate my agree[ment] with the merits considered in the Milestone proposal submitted by the IEEE Spain Section about the Dr. Francisco Salvá I Campillo. I believe that Dr. Salvá I Campillo must have an international recognition related with Telecommunication (Telegraphy) engineering because he has been a precursor of the Early Wired telegraphy in Europe and may be in the world. [Reference: Semaphore to Satellite, pp.18-24.Published by the International Telecommunication Union, Geneva 1965,]. In short, I want to comment about a little controversial related with the “first inventor”. The "Space multiplexed" electrochemical telegraph of S. T. von Sömmering used the same design concept as the one proposed by Dr. Salvá I Campillo in 1795 in Spain. [Reference: Semaphore to Satellite, pp.18-24.] . The Electrochemical Telegraph of S. T. von Sömmering presented to the Munich Academy of Science in 1808 proposed a more large number of “multiplexed wires” of Dr. Salvá and, the “receivers” for each letter of alphabet were not Leyden´s bottles. In the technical literature there is the following comment :"...Sömmering learned the technique from Francisco Salva, who had developed a similar instrument in 1804 in Barcelona. Sömmering used stronger batteries and was thus able to transmit over a distance of 3.5 kilometers. Salva´s telegraph used an electric cable for each letter. Every cable was connected to an electrode which was immersed in a glass tube filled with acid. The second electrodes were connected to the return cables. When Salva sent an electric current along a particular cable, it led to electrolysis at the other end: This released gas bubbles in the tube which showed which letter was meant. ..." I think that the principle was the same proposed and tried by Dr. Salvá. [Reference: “Memoria sobre la Electricidad aplicada al Telegrafo”,pp.17-28, Memorias de la Real Academia de Ciencias Naturales y Artes de Barcelona, Diciembre 16,1795]"

Re: Third Expert Evaluation of Salva Milestone Submission -- Apyuste (talk) 09:24, 6 September 2018 (UTC)

This summary cited by Prof. Delgado-Penin is quite clarifying about the priority of Salva's telegraph in time. As, he mentions, such a remarkable book on the history of communications as the ITU's "Semaphore to Satellite" (1965), recognises the pioneering work of Salva on the foundations of the electric telegraphy. I really thank Prof. Delgado-Penin for his support.

Salvás practical experiements -- John Vardalas (talk) 18:50, 20 August 2018 (UTC)

The citation ends with "Salva also carried out some practical experiments to demonstrate the feasibility of his proposal”. Do we know how long after the 1804 report to the Academy did Salva successfully demonstrate this feasibility? Were these experiments reported to the Academy? Where did these experiments take place?