Difference between revisions of "Milestone-Proposal talk:BASIC"

(Table for next time? -- ~~~~: new section)
(Expert Review - Jim Issak -- ~~~~: new section)
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I am in general approval of the milestone, but thinks it needs finalization before being voted on by the HC.
 
I am in general approval of the milestone, but thinks it needs finalization before being voted on by the HC.
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== Expert Review - Jim Issak -- [[User:E.tejera|E.tejera]] ([[User talk:E.tejera|talk]]) 16:05, 25 September 2019 (UTC) ==
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Colleagues,
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I strongly support the "BASIC milestone" effort ... of course, you must realize that I'm in the category of students
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identified by Dykstra when he asserted "It is practically impossible to teach good programming to students that
 +
have had a prior exposure to BASIC: as potential programmers they are mentally mutilated beyond hope of regeneration”
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Perhaps some regeneration has occurred subsequent to my first use of the language on an HP system in 1967.
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[Also note, as Vice Chair of the NH Section I've been an advocate of this for some time.]
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1) Is the suggested wording of the Plaque Citation accurate?
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  -- Yes, perhaps it understates the real impact of BASIC since it was a significant component
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    of both Apple and Microsoft's  emergence in the market.
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2) Is the evidence presented in the proposal of sufficient substance and accuracy to support the Citation?
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-- Yes,  I hope that Dartmouth, and others keep the description provided in places where future students and such can
 +
    reference this.  In a world of smart phones that out-compute the largest computers of the last century, and languages
 +
 +
    like Python (which is an interpretive language, with some inspiration from BASIC) have facilitated the explosion of \
 +
 +
    data science, analytics, and deep learning ... it is easy to forget how BASIC translated a box of silicon tied to a
 +
 +
    TV set into a device that millions of users could both use, but also actually learn to program.  A standard test
 +
  applied by myself and others to any new personal computer was to enter a simple BASIC program to add the
 +
 +
  numbers from one to a thousand just to verify that it worked, was easy to use and reasonably fast.
 +
 +
3) Does the proposed milestone represent a significant technical achievement?
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    absolutely.  there is really no alternative with similar impact.  IBM's APL was also
 +
 +
    an interpretive language that supported multi-user systems, but it was literally Greek
 +
 +
    to most of it's few users.  Small computers (Mini's/Micros) were programmed in assembly
 +
 +
    code which was even more likely to 'mentally mutilate' students (myself included)
 +
 +
    The addition to BASIC of peek/poke (to directly manipulate RAM contents), made it
 +
 +
    an essential tool for hackers (both in the positive use of the term - folks who create
 +
 +
  quick and dirty applications; and the negative sense -- folks that do nasty things to your
 +
 +
  computer.) ... Microsoft's continued evolution of BASIC as a core part of their office tools,
 +
 +
  (it's the macro coding tool), into Visual Basic and also a web-server side programming
 +
 +
    environment, added the critical structured programming components that Dykstra
 +
 +
  was advocating (proper loops and the elimination of "GOTO" being key examples.)
 +
 +
  BASIC put programming in the hands of millions of non-computer science folks,
 +
 +
  something that cannot be said for any other computing language.
 +
 +
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Best wishes
 +
 +
Jim Isaak

Revision as of 16:05, 25 September 2019

-- Administrator4 (talk) 16:25, 23 August 2018 (UTC)

In order to avoid the passive voice, to add details, and clarify that BASIC is no longer the principal programming language used on microcomputers, here is a suggested edit for the citation:

Professors John G. Kemeny and Thomas E. Kurtz at Dartmouth College designed the Beginner's All-purpose Symbolic Instruction Code (BASIC) programming language between 1963 and 1964. The simplicity of BASIC's syntax, and the wide acceptance of its enhanced versions, made it useful in fields beyond science and mathematics –- an early instance of “accessible computing.” During the mid-1970s and 1980s, BASIC was the principal programming language used on early microcomputers.

Citation use of names -- Lise Johnston (talk) 21:47, 26 January 2019 (UTC)

It has generally been preferable to recognize the technical advancement without recognizing the individuals as the primary focus of milestone citations. The citation currently begins with the names of Professors John G. Kemeny and Thomas E. Kurtz at the beginning of the wording even before the achievement itself is enumerated. Consider revising the citation with that in mind. Maybe also describe what was special about BASIC in the plaque so the average viewing public who isn't familiar with it can better understand the significance of the achievement.

Incomplete application -- Lise Johnston (talk) 21:50, 26 January 2019 (UTC)

Missing the section "What features set this work apart from similar achievements?"

Missing items -- Jason.k.hui (talk) 10:32, 4 September 2019 (UTC)

It appears this milestone proposal did not have any expert reviews performed nor the advocate's approval recorded in the discussion area. Also, the intended plaque site as noted in the proposal is still incorrect. Based on my last email exchange with the milestone proposer in early July, the plaque will be installed on the west side of the south facade of Collis, the building formerly called College Hall. The proposal still has Kemeny Hall listed with the wrong photo.

Jason Hui

History Committee Vice Chair & Milestone Subcommittee Chair

Re: Missing items -- Jbart64 (talk) 21:01, 4 September 2019 (UTC)

Replace this text with your reply

I agree with Jason, we need the expert reviews. Generally, I am supportive of this milestone as it proceeds toward completion. Dave Bart

Citation and general -- JaninA (talk) 11:41, 9 September 2019 (UTC)

I second the comment of Dave. Also I agree with Lise, that the Citation does not reflect and does not explain the significance of this Milestone.

Table for next time? -- Allisonmarsh (talk) 06:13, 13 September 2019 (UTC)

I am in general approval of the milestone, but thinks it needs finalization before being voted on by the HC.

Expert Review - Jim Issak -- E.tejera (talk) 16:05, 25 September 2019 (UTC)

Colleagues, I strongly support the "BASIC milestone" effort ... of course, you must realize that I'm in the category of students identified by Dykstra when he asserted "It is practically impossible to teach good programming to students that have had a prior exposure to BASIC: as potential programmers they are mentally mutilated beyond hope of regeneration” Perhaps some regeneration has occurred subsequent to my first use of the language on an HP system in 1967. [Also note, as Vice Chair of the NH Section I've been an advocate of this for some time.]

1) Is the suggested wording of the Plaque Citation accurate?

 -- Yes, perhaps it understates the real impact of BASIC since it was a significant component
    of both Apple and Microsoft's  emergence in the market.

2) Is the evidence presented in the proposal of sufficient substance and accuracy to support the Citation?

-- Yes, I hope that Dartmouth, and others keep the description provided in places where future students and such can

    reference this.  In a world of smart phones that out-compute the largest computers of the last century, and languages 
    like Python (which is an interpretive language, with some inspiration from BASIC) have facilitated the explosion of \
    data science, analytics, and deep learning ... it is easy to forget how BASIC translated a box of silicon tied to a
   TV set into a device that millions of users could both use, but also actually learn to program.   A standard test
  applied by myself and others to any new personal computer was to enter a simple BASIC program to add the
  numbers from one to a thousand just to verify that it worked, was easy to use and reasonably fast.

3) Does the proposed milestone represent a significant technical achievement?

   absolutely.  there is really no alternative with similar impact.  IBM's APL was also
   an interpretive language that supported multi-user systems, but it was literally Greek
   to most of it's few users.  Small computers (Mini's/Micros) were programmed in assembly
   code which was even more likely to 'mentally mutilate' students (myself included) 
   The addition to BASIC of peek/poke (to directly manipulate RAM contents), made it
   an essential tool for hackers (both in the positive use of the term - folks who create
  quick and dirty applications; and the negative sense -- folks that do nasty things to your 
  computer.) ... Microsoft's continued evolution of BASIC as a core part of their office tools,
  (it's the macro coding tool), into Visual Basic and also a web-server side programming
   environment, added the critical structured programming components that Dykstra
  was advocating (proper loops and the elimination of "GOTO" being key examples.)
  BASIC put programming in the hands of millions of non-computer science folks,
  something that cannot be said for any other computing language.


Best wishes

Jim Isaak